Post by spannernick on Apr 26, 2018 21:07:14 GMT
naivri a month ago
Hi
Plugged the USB Joystick into my PC and yeah it works fine.
However, the input lag on the mini makes games unplayable.
Anyone else seen this issue?
steddyman a month ago
I've got the same problem. At first I thought it was the joystick that was crap, but it seems ok i the menus. But must be at least a 1/3rd of a second input lag in games making them unplayable.
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xiotex a month ago
I'm having the same issue, it's making all the games unplayable that I've tried on it so far.
xiotex a month ago
I've tried all the modes on my Samsung and I'm still getting lag.
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xiotex a month ago
I can see why the TV processing might introduce lag but if that's the case I'm stuck with the lag
steddyman a month ago
Mine is in game mode.
I noticed I am on 1.0.0 of the firmware despite 1.0.5 being released. There are no download options on the Upgrade page of the website. Anyone have 1.0.5 I can try?
Killercrab a month ago
I have a fairly new Samsung TV and the input lag was very noticeable- particularly on Monty On The Run. However switching to ‘Game’ mode in the TVs general options appears to have totally solved the issue - the games now play fine with no lag whatsoever. Hopefully a firmware release will solve this
wizkid a month ago Edited
Hello all! i'm experiencing the same problems, but only with the preinstalled games.
i have played for half an hour the last ninja 2 by loading via an usb external drive, and the controller worked perfectly and was very responsive.
xiotex a month ago
I've been playing around with TV settings and trying it on various TV's and there's something to it being about the signal processing modern TV's do. I've managed to significantly reduce the lag.
oldskool a month ago
I am getting an immense amount of lag in all games.
The TV I have is in game mode and my TV is a class leader in low latency response.
I have turned off any additional processing options and made sure also that UHD colour is turned off and that the picture is set to 4:3 matching the option on the device.
When you feel as though the controls are super heavy - that is lag and what I am getting is horrific. It would come across to a new gamer as though it was an issue with the joystick, but it is not, it is the lag making the control feel like it weighs a ton weight.
I played Winter Games - I urge other people to player Winter Games and the Biathlon event. When it comes to shooting the targets, you have to shoot so early to hit the target it is crazy, and when you load the gun, the sound effect for loading the gun s over a second behind. It's just nuts.
Really hard to see how this isn't simply the device and inadequate emulation, though I'm open and hoping the cause is something else.
I also get really bad slow down in Nebulous, just after the start of the game - really bad.
commodore_mike replied to this.
Bronski a month ago
The lag is ridiculous!
Have no lag with my PS4 pro or one x whilst playing them on my tv, so it’s not my tv, it was definitely the c64 mini.
Mine is now on its way back to Amazon, and good riddance too!
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W12MODS a month ago
Bronski ps4 and xbox are not emulators all emulators have some lag. You should wait for firmware update and complain to retro games who do monitor this site.
I have not received mine yet (Amazon like you) but if mine is bad as you say we need to stick together and get it resolved by retro games.
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Ouzy a month ago
Bronski
I have no noticeable lag here on my C64 mini. I was running it from a Samsung phone charger 5v/1amp but that was laggy and the screen showed shadows and tearing on the graphics. Swapped the charger for my old Raspberry Pi 5v/2amp one and problem solved. Works great, no tearing perfect visuals. I plug it in to my LG TV in game mode.
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synchromesh a month ago Edited
One way or another Retro games will have to address the issue and as W12MODS states there are firmware updates on the way ... I tried mine on my 26 inch tv today rather than my 50 inch and to be honest it ran so much better ( not that I had any real issues before ) ..To be fair playing on 50 inch isn't really the retro experience is it ?
it was more absorbing on the smaller screen ... As for sending it back ... I think you were a little premature there ..
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RetroBiker a month ago Edited
I did a quick video this morning showing the lag from hitting the keyboard or joystick and the screen updating. This is using BASIC, however I wouldn't expect you'd notice much difference if the program was in machine code.
My setup:
TheC64 Mini (duh)
Atolla powered 4-port hub + charging port
Microsoft 850 wireless keyboard
SanDisk 8GB memory stick
Samsung TV (LE40M8)
The hub provides up to 3A from the charging port which I use to power the Mini. In this test, I had the keyboard in the hub and the joystick in the Mini, however the result was exactly the same if I had the joystick in the hub. The TV is about 10 years old. It doesn't have a game mode, however it has post-processing modes for "movies", etc which I have turned off.
Sorry about the scratchy sound. I did this before having my first coffee of the day so couldn't be bothered to sort that out.
Anyway, the slow motion segments are running at 10% speed. You can see an approximate 1s delay from hitting the space bar or the joystick fire button and the screen updating which translates to 0.1s in real time. This figure seems to agree with what The 8-bit Guy reported in his review.
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Gurce2 5 days ago Edited
I tried a fairly newish samsung monitor today. Not sure of model no# but its the curved style, it has hdmi input and inbuilt speaker audio (or only an audio out to external speakers).
I was happy to see absolutely no lag on this model. It had a game mode option in its menu, and surprisingly, I didn't experience any lag, regardless of whether this mode was turned on or off :-)
Yeah, it's a shame though the big living room tv has the lag, hopefully its something that can be rectified in future.
Sometimes I wonder if more of the onus for the issue lies with the tv manufacturer and whether they considered testing for lag on their tv's prior to releasing them.
Some have countered that their more modern consoles don't suffer from this lag.
Though sometimes I wonder, is that because modern console game developers have catered for that lag in their games. E.g. I seems to recall that some modern console games slowly accelerate the player from a stationary position, allowing the player to gather momentum over a period of time. That sort of player movement (and a style of gameplay that is more forgiving of this style of motion) might help to conceal the lag.
Whereas many games of the c64 era had a certain hard acceleration (either move at full speed instantly or come to a complete halt instantly) and a type of gameplay that required precise, pixel perfect movement.
Parcival 25 days ago
I am using a 3 year old LG 42" LCD 1080p with Game mode on with my C64 Mini. I have no lag at all.
I can happily play Impossible Mission which as we all know needs you jumping like a crazy fool over robots backwards and forwards and my timing is spot on just like it was all them years ago so I'd definitely notice it in this game for sure if I had any. Also the sound is totally in sync in all games.
I can only think it is screen-related.
Parcival 25 days ago
oldskool
I played Winter Games - I urge other people to player Winter Games and the Biathlon event. When it comes to shooting the targets, you have to shoot so early to hit the target it is crazy, and when you load the gun, the sound effect for loading the gun s over a second behind. It's just nuts.
I just played it and its in sync for me. I missed 4 times. If it was not right I'd be all over the shop :angry:
oldskool replied to this.
Gurce 25 days ago
Now I start to wonder if it's worth pestering the tv manufacturers to update their TV's firmware and fix such lag issues. As it seems odd that my mum's Panasonic tv, which is only a few years old and has a 'game mode', still suffers from the lag, despite turning that 'game mode' on...
oldskool 25 days ago
Parcival
Would you be willing to film this on your phone/tablet with the sound on the event?
To be clear, i'm not suggesting you are lying, I'm simply interested to see what differences we are observing. If you are getting something that is significantly different, then that would give me more hope, not less, as it could mean it is something that can be resolved. The other possibility of course is that I'm more attuned to spotting and hearing/picking up on input latency.
Better to assume nothing and see. If you can't film or do not wish to, that's fine. It just makes sense to try and see what is going on from my point of view. Best of in any regard.
Killamarshian 25 days ago
I have a gaming monitor with 1ms response. There is no lag whatsoever. The lag problem is your TV/monitors not the C64 Mini. I think people forget also, the original C64 probably had some lag anyway. It wasn’t the fastest of computers in the 80’s and maybe the CRTs of the time covered it up. Also, I think we just played the games and lived with whatever we got. I sec result on Biathlon is a no-no of course.
Braindome 25 days ago
Killamarshian old school CRTs had absolutely zero lag. C64 games were actually synced to the TV's raster cycle. The problem is that all modern TV's are essentially computers that perform all kinds of processing on the incoming signal before displaying it.
I'd like to think the C64 mini is not at fault here at all, so if somebody can provide video evidence of zero lag on their TV, that would be great.
Killamarshian 24 days ago
Braindome I will see what I can do
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Killamarshian 24 days ago Edited
Button in pressed at 7.76 seconds and the screen starts to change at 7.88. That is a reaction time of 0.12secs. Bare in mind this is using a BASIC program that waits for the button press in a loop and then there are three more lines of code before the screen change command is executed. C64 basic is not famous for its speed.
If you want to run the programs I wrote (based on Retrobikers video) they are here.
1drv.ms/u/s!AhQC2vqh0TefgdMPbN5B9yO-yL04Jg
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commodore_mike 24 days ago Edited
oldskool Have you guys tried turning off motion smoothing specifically? It may not turn off automatically in game mode. That seems to make a big difference for me at least.
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Gurce 24 days ago
commodore_mike I recall not only switching to GameMode, but turning off just about every other 'enhancement' I could find in the picture settings, but still no improvement on the family's big Panasonic Tv in the lounge room.
But I'll keep my eye out for a "motion smoothing" setting the next time I try.
@oldskool killamarshian In case you want to rule out the speed of BASIC as a factor in your test, I've compiled the 8-bit guy's "delaytest.asm" into a .d64 file here:
gurce.net/c64mini_files/delaytest.d64
I'll aim to take some video footage of my lag measurements at my next opportunity too.
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oldskool 24 days ago
commodore_mike
I sorted it out - I was already in Game Mode to begin with and had also turned off further processing, and the TV is low latency - Samsung KS9000.
The issue was cumulative imo.
a) emulation has lag.
b) HDMI can increase that further and so can usb control.
c) display modes that add filters add a little lag
d) any processing of the TV aside from the obvious Game Mode still adds processing and potential lag.
e) crucially - my TV is 4K. With a lot of 4K TVs you cannot select the resolution yourself - I think the TV was up-scaling the the image.
So I went through the advanced menus and switched all processing features off - that were not already removed by the game mode. I selected pixel perfect - no filters from the mini. And more importantly I connected a non 4K HDMI splitter box to my 4K TV - thereby forcing it to display the native output from the C64 mini - rather than scaling the picture in any way.
The result is that I have a small amount of lag - but no different than I would expect from any form of emulation. The issue is pretty much fixed for me.
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rialdo replied to this.
Aneira 21 days ago Edited
I seriously experience no input lag at all. I have my mini powered with the USB cable which came in the box directly to my Sony Bravia Smart TV. I just tested biathlon and press hit in the shooting scene directly when the corsair is on target. 20 hits out of 20.
It's not the C64 mini that's the problem. It just baffles me that so many of you has issues.
Oh, and by the way. I'm not even using Game Mode setting on the TV.
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InterruptRequest 21 days ago
Yes I too have like a 1/4 second lag, which makes playing games impossible. I tried playing Creatures and it's very frustrating, I can't get a normal game going.
I already fiddled with my TV settings (I have a Samsung 3D 46 inch TV) but no luck yet.
I REALLY hope this can be fixed with a firmware upgrade!!
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rialdo 21 days ago Edited
oldskool
I'm not convinced this is an issue with the C64 mini. Game lag is a major issue in general with modern TVs.
I think you're misunderstanding what your 4k TV is doing with upscaling. If you are watching anything full-screen on your TV, it's upscaled. There's no way around that. It has to. Using a splitter box will not prevent the TV from upscaling, or force it to display video in native resolution. That's simply not how it works with TVs. If the TV truly displayed a 720p or 1080p image in native resolution, it would appear in a small box in the center of the screen - it wouldn't be full-screen. The only way to display an image less than 2160p full-screen is by upscaling.
All modern TVs have some input lag. As you stated, the processing on TVs add up, and some TVs are much worse than others. My LG 4k TV has pretty bad input lag in general unless you use game mode. LG improved the lag somewhat over the months with updates. Even so there's a small amount of lag, but it's much better than not using game mode.
Motion smoothing is a big cause of input lag. People definitely want to disable any motion smoothing and any other additional processing/noise reduction options while in game mode.
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oldskool replied to this.
InterruptRequest 21 days ago
[edit from previous post]
I've tried all screen options on my tv, nothing works. This is a faulty product ... oh yes I am angry.
oldskool replied to this.
oldskool 21 days ago Edited
rialdo
Mate, can you tell me what is in it for me to argue with you?
I mean I have done what I have said and I no longer have the lag that I had. I have solved the problem - it is no longer, it is gone lol. You are the one with lag, not me, so like I say, why do I need to argue with you, rather than just enjoy my games?
I am willing to talk/chat and even help if I can, if that is what you want from me. But you'd have to drop the argumentative tone as there is literally nothing for me to gain here anyway and so I will just leave you to argue with yourself otherwise. C'mon, want to try again?
My splitter box cannot support 4K - that's a fact - so it is NOT supplying a 4K image to the TV. The splitter box also does not support HDR, so again that is not supplied either. I have also connected my WiiU via this splitter box and I get either a 1080p signal or 720p - I can see all of the extra sharpness and aliasing issues are gone - that again is just a fact. As for the TVs and game mode. That's just barn door obvious. As for LG - yes they are good TVs and yes some of those sets have only recently had their response latency improved via firmware. I know this. The reason I opted for the poorer colour response (not OLED) of the Samsung was precisely because I did the research at the time and went for the lowest latency possible for a TV at all resolutions. I went on the Rtings website and went with one of the class leading TVs at the time that suited my needs. You obviously didn't do that, otherwiae you would have known about the latency issues in game mode. Thankfully LG has been great with firmware and you have a fine TV set - so it all works out pretty much. Anyway when I had lag on Winter Games on the biathlon event I would hit the fire button and hear the shot half a second later. Through the splitter box this is not happening now. On that event as soon as I pressed fire on the targets I missed - every time. When I pressed the fire button way, way, way early I hit the targets - again this does not happen anymore. Now when I press the fire button and the targets are lined up I hit the targets. But I m not going to argue this any further as there is literally no point. If you could be here in my house, we could have a sound chat and I would gladly show you and we would have no argument. I hope you do get sorted and overcome the lag mate, I really do. The TV you have is pretty ace all things considered.
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oldskool 21 days ago
InterruptRequest
If you've tried these no worries;
Game mode
ALL options that relate to processing that are not turned off by being in game mode - go into your menus/advanced menus etc and turn them all off.
If you have a menu that relates to 4K colour - turn this off as well (no idea if this has an effect - just get every possible processing option - off)
Go to your mini and select the full screen pixel perfect option - less processing.
If you can buy an ibuffalo game pad. You can get them on Amazon for about 17 quid. They seem to ve more responsive - at least at the level of the joystick and every little - helps.
Can you tell me what your TV is? As in what model - exactly.
Is it a 4K set for instance? Or is it 1080p?
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InterruptRequest 21 days ago
oldskool I have a Samsung UE46ES6570, which is a 1080p 46 inch 3D Smart TV. It's a couple of years old, maybe 2-3 years.
I tried everything video related from its menu options, nothing works. Game mode does nothing. Didn't try too many C64 options though, I'll have to try these then.
Thanks for trying to help.
oldskool replied to this.
Darbyram 21 days ago
Try any tv you have in your household.
InterruptRequest 21 days ago
Darbyram I only have my pc monitor as another device. But really, having your main tv not working with the C64 is a big fail, isn't it? They really should address this with a firmware update. My PS4 Pro doesn't have this problem.
Darbyram21 days ago
InterruptRequest I agree and these issues should be addressed asap...some of us have these problems, some of us don't...but they need looking into.
InterruptRequest replied to this.
Darbyram 21 days ago
issues
post in here and see if you get a reply..
InterruptRequest 21 days ago
Darbyram I ordered some C64 books to study assembly language, pretty much the only thing I can do now at the mo. C++, what's that?
Darbyram 21 days ago
InterruptRequest c++ is the stepping stone to greater things..
I InterruptRequest21 days ago
Can you do self modifying code in C++?
Darbyram 21 days ago
I think so, but it's been 30 odd years since I used it. I am sure the younger generation can enlighten you more on the subject. And why would you want too anyway??
InterruptRequest 21 days ago
Darbyram Not for any reason, I just wanted to point out an assemble language feature. It's a female dog to debug though. I REALLY hopy I didn't throw away my assembly language book. I moved recently so stuff gets lost somehow.
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Killamarshian 21 days ago
Maybe the lag is prevalent because The Mini outputs at 720p and most TVs are now 1080p? The up-scaling the TV has to do may be causing the lag. If the Mini could output at 1080p maybe this issue would go away?
Gurce 21 days ago
InterruptRequest If it's of any use for your assembly debugging, VICE has a monitor that you can drop breakpoints into and step through assembly:
www.cs.cmu.edu/~dsladic/vice/doc/html/vice_9.html
I've also got a vague memory of reading that cbm .prg studio has an inbuilt debugger too, I haven't explored that, but if it let's you step alongside your original assembly source code, that would be sweet Maybe this vid has some insights:
oldskool 21 days ago
InterruptRequest Trying to help - no worries.
Have you turned off noise reduction and all the processing stuff like that as well as being in game mode?
If you can make sure that any noise reduction is off, any picture smoothing features and interpolation/smoothing is off etc. Different TVs use different lingo for these features but you need the lot off. Try the pixel perfect option I mentioned on the mini.
One other thing to try would be differing HDMI ports as on some TVs one port is reserved for gaming or runs a little better for gaming. I'm not familiar with your TV set, I tried to find info on it on rtings site etc without any success...anyway a few things to try here. Also are you using the original joystick? I honestly think the Ibuffalo pad improves response quite a bit regardless of lag so you might want to buy/try it unless you are waiting on a firmware update for a differing favoured usb controller.
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lroby74 20 days ago
I am using a 27" LED Asus monitor and no lag, you can see playing on this video :
InterruptRequest replied to this.
InterruptRequest 20 days ago
oldskool Yeah I can try all of my 3 hdmi ports. One of them doesn't work already, maybe 1 of the others will. I can also try the C64's different screen settings.
I'm using the original joystick, I have 2 other wireless gamepads but can't use them.
A lot of mucking about though ...
InterruptRequest 19 days ago
lroby74 What response time does your monitor have?
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lroby74 19 days ago
InterruptRequest 2ms it's an Asus VE278Q)
InterruptRequest 19 days ago
A nice monitor, I hope I don't have to buy it just to be able to play ...
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lroby74 replied to this.
efdee 19 days ago
I'm having a hard time believing this isn't an issue with The C64. None of my other consoles, including my SNES mini, have this issue with my TV.
InterruptRequest 19 days ago
Tried some more things: all my tv's hdmi ports, all the C64's different resolutions, all my tv's video options, game mode, firmware update ... nope, nothing. I think it works really bad (or not at all) with non-pc/gaming monitors. Another firmware update please which actually addresses the issue!...
lroby74 19 days ago
InterruptRequest I already own it, i am using on my PC with Display Port connection and on 5 mini HDMI consoles (NES, SNES, C64, Atari 2600 & Atgames Sega MD) with a 5 port HDMI splitter, i love this monitor
InterruptRequest 19 days ago
lroby74 The VS278Q also looks pretty neat. And I'm not the guy to sit there and wait for months on end waiting for a solution to appear. I think the problem lies in a monitor's response time.
9 DAYS LATER
rialdo 10 days ago Edited
oldskool
I don't know what to tell you, but the fact is, if the screen is filled corner to corner, it's upscaled. Period. End of subject. That's how all TVs work. 720p TVs, 1080p TVs, and 2160p TVs. The only way possible for any TV to display the video full-screen is by upscaling. That's the very definition of upscaling - bumping up the resolution to fill the screen. Otherwise it wouldn't fill the screen and only play in a window.
I did not say your box is sending a 4k video. I said your TV is upscaling it. Period. This is how upscaling works. Your TV is always upscaling if you send it anything other than native resolution. If you send a 4k set a 480p or 720p or 1080p video, it upscales it to 4k. Always. If you send a 1080p TV a 480p or 720p video, it upscales it. Always.
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L Lhadmirp9 days ago
Such a bummer! Was looking forward to play Winter Games with my family! Especially biathlon! But it was unplayable because of the lag! A lot of the other games have the same problem!
The C64mini is really disappointing me and I wont touch it again before there is a fix for this problem!
I have tried to adjust the TV for Games, etc. but no changes!
oldskoo l9 days ago
rialdo
720p fills the whole screen, it is not the same as 1080p that fills the whole screen, that is not the same as 1440p that fills up the whole screen, that is not the same as 2160p that fills up the whole screen. I am forcing the picture to display at the lower resolution of the splitter box - as the splitter box does not support 4K. The splitter box is pushing out a 1080p signal. Now is the mini 720p or 1080p? I have not bothered my arris to find out - what we do know however is that the signal is not 4K lmao. My mini is not being pointlessly upscaled all the way up to 4K and as a result I am getting less processing and guess what...less lag.
That is what I have been saying.
I have very little lag now and am happy with my mini. You have lots of lag and are telling me I am wrong. Can I be wrong and left in peace now please? You do not have to do anything I have said or done, or take my word for anything.
Not getting into anything with people round here anymore.
I'll happily talk positive stuff about what games people like and keep it to that - thx.
Best of luck sorting your lag.
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InterruptRequest 9 days ago
rialdo Does this mean it could work with my 720p projector? I'll have to try this tomorrow!
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oldskool 8 days ago Edited
This might help some if not superceeded via firmware updates:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LG tv - Reduce input lag/Better overall picture
Hey everybody, I've been doing a ton of research on tv calibration settings for my LG tv (42in LN5300) to get the most out of my xbox one. I've been kind of frustrated with not having the best picture I could, and lots of issues with the blacks being crushed. I then stumbled on a forum that unveiled the answer. LG tv settings don't automatically change to the 16x9 setting along with reducing input lag when you switch to "game" mode on picture settings. More importantly your tv isn't outputting RGB color settings (which your xbox one is sending to your tv).
The Solution
Go to the Home/Menu button on your remote.
Select input(s)
Change HDMI 1 label to the PC label. It depends on your specific tv on how you do this. Usually you arrow down or select the HDMI 1 selection, and click to change, or scroll sideways to change it. It's pretty easy to figure out so you shouldn't have an issue changing the label to pc.
This will drastically improve your graphics. As far as the detailed settings, I usually set my picture mode to expert 1 and find what works best. Search AVS forums for your specific tv and that should help you find optimal settings. I've found that on some games I may have to change my sharpness (especially the graphical nightmare that is BF4) but generally they stay the same. Good luck, hope this helps!
Edit: Here's my specific tv settings if anyone was wondering.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would urge everyone still experiencing lag to turn off anything and everything that even smells like extra processing - anything to do with motion or interpolation, anything to do with black levels or dynamic contrast etc
Make sure you are in 4:3 and not 16:9 and make sure you try each and every hdmi port. And try andiffering controller as well as that may have an effect - I use the Ibuffalo and it is a pretty responsive controller - lag or no lag. Go through all advanced/expert menus on your TV and make sure you are getting a bare bones image. Turn off UHD colour just in case that adds processing. This is sometimes hidden and per hdmi channel. Try running your mini off a power supply that is much higher than the recommendation if using more devices and a USB hub (just in case it makes a difference). I run my mini off a 3.4amp power supply from Amazon. Turn off the processing options in the mini and go with 4:3 as I said.
Maybe even try a differing hdmi lead - try one off an Xbox One or PS4 - it's something else to at least try.
My TV has a breakout HDMI box and I am running a splitter box into that and I think it is affecting the way the image is processed on my set on the basis of response - note I do not get a full screen image with this - but this is specific and pointless going on about given my set and set-up.
If no joy whatsoever - try and pick up a cheap/old HD Ready or 1080p set.
There is bound to be some small residual lag though - you have to accept that due to emulation/hdmi etc.
I can't tell people how different the experience is by also switching out the default Joystick to the Ibuffalo - gamesmlike Armalyte are just miles more responsive - you can pick one of them up for about 17 quid and like Insay regardless of lag, you might be pleasantly surprised with that improvement in terms of controller response.
Loving Amalyte since I got rid of lag. Before it was a teen memory of a great game that frustrated like hell. Now it is just superb.
Hi
Plugged the USB Joystick into my PC and yeah it works fine.
However, the input lag on the mini makes games unplayable.
Anyone else seen this issue?
steddyman a month ago
I've got the same problem. At first I thought it was the joystick that was crap, but it seems ok i the menus. But must be at least a 1/3rd of a second input lag in games making them unplayable.
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xiotex a month ago
I'm having the same issue, it's making all the games unplayable that I've tried on it so far.
xiotex a month ago
I've tried all the modes on my Samsung and I'm still getting lag.
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xiotex a month ago
I can see why the TV processing might introduce lag but if that's the case I'm stuck with the lag
steddyman a month ago
Mine is in game mode.
I noticed I am on 1.0.0 of the firmware despite 1.0.5 being released. There are no download options on the Upgrade page of the website. Anyone have 1.0.5 I can try?
Killercrab a month ago
I have a fairly new Samsung TV and the input lag was very noticeable- particularly on Monty On The Run. However switching to ‘Game’ mode in the TVs general options appears to have totally solved the issue - the games now play fine with no lag whatsoever. Hopefully a firmware release will solve this
wizkid a month ago Edited
Hello all! i'm experiencing the same problems, but only with the preinstalled games.
i have played for half an hour the last ninja 2 by loading via an usb external drive, and the controller worked perfectly and was very responsive.
xiotex a month ago
I've been playing around with TV settings and trying it on various TV's and there's something to it being about the signal processing modern TV's do. I've managed to significantly reduce the lag.
oldskool a month ago
I am getting an immense amount of lag in all games.
The TV I have is in game mode and my TV is a class leader in low latency response.
I have turned off any additional processing options and made sure also that UHD colour is turned off and that the picture is set to 4:3 matching the option on the device.
When you feel as though the controls are super heavy - that is lag and what I am getting is horrific. It would come across to a new gamer as though it was an issue with the joystick, but it is not, it is the lag making the control feel like it weighs a ton weight.
I played Winter Games - I urge other people to player Winter Games and the Biathlon event. When it comes to shooting the targets, you have to shoot so early to hit the target it is crazy, and when you load the gun, the sound effect for loading the gun s over a second behind. It's just nuts.
Really hard to see how this isn't simply the device and inadequate emulation, though I'm open and hoping the cause is something else.
I also get really bad slow down in Nebulous, just after the start of the game - really bad.
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Bronski a month ago
The lag is ridiculous!
Have no lag with my PS4 pro or one x whilst playing them on my tv, so it’s not my tv, it was definitely the c64 mini.
Mine is now on its way back to Amazon, and good riddance too!
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W12MODS a month ago
Bronski ps4 and xbox are not emulators all emulators have some lag. You should wait for firmware update and complain to retro games who do monitor this site.
I have not received mine yet (Amazon like you) but if mine is bad as you say we need to stick together and get it resolved by retro games.
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Ouzy a month ago
Bronski
I have no noticeable lag here on my C64 mini. I was running it from a Samsung phone charger 5v/1amp but that was laggy and the screen showed shadows and tearing on the graphics. Swapped the charger for my old Raspberry Pi 5v/2amp one and problem solved. Works great, no tearing perfect visuals. I plug it in to my LG TV in game mode.
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synchromesh a month ago Edited
One way or another Retro games will have to address the issue and as W12MODS states there are firmware updates on the way ... I tried mine on my 26 inch tv today rather than my 50 inch and to be honest it ran so much better ( not that I had any real issues before ) ..To be fair playing on 50 inch isn't really the retro experience is it ?
it was more absorbing on the smaller screen ... As for sending it back ... I think you were a little premature there ..
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RetroBiker a month ago Edited
I did a quick video this morning showing the lag from hitting the keyboard or joystick and the screen updating. This is using BASIC, however I wouldn't expect you'd notice much difference if the program was in machine code.
My setup:
TheC64 Mini (duh)
Atolla powered 4-port hub + charging port
Microsoft 850 wireless keyboard
SanDisk 8GB memory stick
Samsung TV (LE40M8)
The hub provides up to 3A from the charging port which I use to power the Mini. In this test, I had the keyboard in the hub and the joystick in the Mini, however the result was exactly the same if I had the joystick in the hub. The TV is about 10 years old. It doesn't have a game mode, however it has post-processing modes for "movies", etc which I have turned off.
Sorry about the scratchy sound. I did this before having my first coffee of the day so couldn't be bothered to sort that out.
Anyway, the slow motion segments are running at 10% speed. You can see an approximate 1s delay from hitting the space bar or the joystick fire button and the screen updating which translates to 0.1s in real time. This figure seems to agree with what The 8-bit Guy reported in his review.
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Gurce2 5 days ago Edited
I tried a fairly newish samsung monitor today. Not sure of model no# but its the curved style, it has hdmi input and inbuilt speaker audio (or only an audio out to external speakers).
I was happy to see absolutely no lag on this model. It had a game mode option in its menu, and surprisingly, I didn't experience any lag, regardless of whether this mode was turned on or off :-)
Yeah, it's a shame though the big living room tv has the lag, hopefully its something that can be rectified in future.
Sometimes I wonder if more of the onus for the issue lies with the tv manufacturer and whether they considered testing for lag on their tv's prior to releasing them.
Some have countered that their more modern consoles don't suffer from this lag.
Though sometimes I wonder, is that because modern console game developers have catered for that lag in their games. E.g. I seems to recall that some modern console games slowly accelerate the player from a stationary position, allowing the player to gather momentum over a period of time. That sort of player movement (and a style of gameplay that is more forgiving of this style of motion) might help to conceal the lag.
Whereas many games of the c64 era had a certain hard acceleration (either move at full speed instantly or come to a complete halt instantly) and a type of gameplay that required precise, pixel perfect movement.
Parcival 25 days ago
I am using a 3 year old LG 42" LCD 1080p with Game mode on with my C64 Mini. I have no lag at all.
I can happily play Impossible Mission which as we all know needs you jumping like a crazy fool over robots backwards and forwards and my timing is spot on just like it was all them years ago so I'd definitely notice it in this game for sure if I had any. Also the sound is totally in sync in all games.
I can only think it is screen-related.
Parcival 25 days ago
oldskool
I played Winter Games - I urge other people to player Winter Games and the Biathlon event. When it comes to shooting the targets, you have to shoot so early to hit the target it is crazy, and when you load the gun, the sound effect for loading the gun s over a second behind. It's just nuts.
I just played it and its in sync for me. I missed 4 times. If it was not right I'd be all over the shop :angry:
oldskool replied to this.
Gurce 25 days ago
Now I start to wonder if it's worth pestering the tv manufacturers to update their TV's firmware and fix such lag issues. As it seems odd that my mum's Panasonic tv, which is only a few years old and has a 'game mode', still suffers from the lag, despite turning that 'game mode' on...
oldskool 25 days ago
Parcival
Would you be willing to film this on your phone/tablet with the sound on the event?
To be clear, i'm not suggesting you are lying, I'm simply interested to see what differences we are observing. If you are getting something that is significantly different, then that would give me more hope, not less, as it could mean it is something that can be resolved. The other possibility of course is that I'm more attuned to spotting and hearing/picking up on input latency.
Better to assume nothing and see. If you can't film or do not wish to, that's fine. It just makes sense to try and see what is going on from my point of view. Best of in any regard.
Killamarshian 25 days ago
I have a gaming monitor with 1ms response. There is no lag whatsoever. The lag problem is your TV/monitors not the C64 Mini. I think people forget also, the original C64 probably had some lag anyway. It wasn’t the fastest of computers in the 80’s and maybe the CRTs of the time covered it up. Also, I think we just played the games and lived with whatever we got. I sec result on Biathlon is a no-no of course.
Braindome 25 days ago
Killamarshian old school CRTs had absolutely zero lag. C64 games were actually synced to the TV's raster cycle. The problem is that all modern TV's are essentially computers that perform all kinds of processing on the incoming signal before displaying it.
I'd like to think the C64 mini is not at fault here at all, so if somebody can provide video evidence of zero lag on their TV, that would be great.
Killamarshian 24 days ago
Braindome I will see what I can do
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Killamarshian 24 days ago Edited
Button in pressed at 7.76 seconds and the screen starts to change at 7.88. That is a reaction time of 0.12secs. Bare in mind this is using a BASIC program that waits for the button press in a loop and then there are three more lines of code before the screen change command is executed. C64 basic is not famous for its speed.
If you want to run the programs I wrote (based on Retrobikers video) they are here.
1drv.ms/u/s!AhQC2vqh0TefgdMPbN5B9yO-yL04Jg
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commodore_mike 24 days ago Edited
oldskool Have you guys tried turning off motion smoothing specifically? It may not turn off automatically in game mode. That seems to make a big difference for me at least.
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Gurce 24 days ago
commodore_mike I recall not only switching to GameMode, but turning off just about every other 'enhancement' I could find in the picture settings, but still no improvement on the family's big Panasonic Tv in the lounge room.
But I'll keep my eye out for a "motion smoothing" setting the next time I try.
@oldskool killamarshian In case you want to rule out the speed of BASIC as a factor in your test, I've compiled the 8-bit guy's "delaytest.asm" into a .d64 file here:
gurce.net/c64mini_files/delaytest.d64
I'll aim to take some video footage of my lag measurements at my next opportunity too.
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oldskool 24 days ago
commodore_mike
I sorted it out - I was already in Game Mode to begin with and had also turned off further processing, and the TV is low latency - Samsung KS9000.
The issue was cumulative imo.
a) emulation has lag.
b) HDMI can increase that further and so can usb control.
c) display modes that add filters add a little lag
d) any processing of the TV aside from the obvious Game Mode still adds processing and potential lag.
e) crucially - my TV is 4K. With a lot of 4K TVs you cannot select the resolution yourself - I think the TV was up-scaling the the image.
So I went through the advanced menus and switched all processing features off - that were not already removed by the game mode. I selected pixel perfect - no filters from the mini. And more importantly I connected a non 4K HDMI splitter box to my 4K TV - thereby forcing it to display the native output from the C64 mini - rather than scaling the picture in any way.
The result is that I have a small amount of lag - but no different than I would expect from any form of emulation. The issue is pretty much fixed for me.
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rialdo replied to this.
Aneira 21 days ago Edited
I seriously experience no input lag at all. I have my mini powered with the USB cable which came in the box directly to my Sony Bravia Smart TV. I just tested biathlon and press hit in the shooting scene directly when the corsair is on target. 20 hits out of 20.
It's not the C64 mini that's the problem. It just baffles me that so many of you has issues.
Oh, and by the way. I'm not even using Game Mode setting on the TV.
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InterruptRequest 21 days ago
Yes I too have like a 1/4 second lag, which makes playing games impossible. I tried playing Creatures and it's very frustrating, I can't get a normal game going.
I already fiddled with my TV settings (I have a Samsung 3D 46 inch TV) but no luck yet.
I REALLY hope this can be fixed with a firmware upgrade!!
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rialdo 21 days ago Edited
oldskool
I'm not convinced this is an issue with the C64 mini. Game lag is a major issue in general with modern TVs.
I think you're misunderstanding what your 4k TV is doing with upscaling. If you are watching anything full-screen on your TV, it's upscaled. There's no way around that. It has to. Using a splitter box will not prevent the TV from upscaling, or force it to display video in native resolution. That's simply not how it works with TVs. If the TV truly displayed a 720p or 1080p image in native resolution, it would appear in a small box in the center of the screen - it wouldn't be full-screen. The only way to display an image less than 2160p full-screen is by upscaling.
All modern TVs have some input lag. As you stated, the processing on TVs add up, and some TVs are much worse than others. My LG 4k TV has pretty bad input lag in general unless you use game mode. LG improved the lag somewhat over the months with updates. Even so there's a small amount of lag, but it's much better than not using game mode.
Motion smoothing is a big cause of input lag. People definitely want to disable any motion smoothing and any other additional processing/noise reduction options while in game mode.
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oldskool replied to this.
InterruptRequest 21 days ago
[edit from previous post]
I've tried all screen options on my tv, nothing works. This is a faulty product ... oh yes I am angry.
oldskool replied to this.
oldskool 21 days ago Edited
rialdo
Mate, can you tell me what is in it for me to argue with you?
I mean I have done what I have said and I no longer have the lag that I had. I have solved the problem - it is no longer, it is gone lol. You are the one with lag, not me, so like I say, why do I need to argue with you, rather than just enjoy my games?
I am willing to talk/chat and even help if I can, if that is what you want from me. But you'd have to drop the argumentative tone as there is literally nothing for me to gain here anyway and so I will just leave you to argue with yourself otherwise. C'mon, want to try again?
My splitter box cannot support 4K - that's a fact - so it is NOT supplying a 4K image to the TV. The splitter box also does not support HDR, so again that is not supplied either. I have also connected my WiiU via this splitter box and I get either a 1080p signal or 720p - I can see all of the extra sharpness and aliasing issues are gone - that again is just a fact. As for the TVs and game mode. That's just barn door obvious. As for LG - yes they are good TVs and yes some of those sets have only recently had their response latency improved via firmware. I know this. The reason I opted for the poorer colour response (not OLED) of the Samsung was precisely because I did the research at the time and went for the lowest latency possible for a TV at all resolutions. I went on the Rtings website and went with one of the class leading TVs at the time that suited my needs. You obviously didn't do that, otherwiae you would have known about the latency issues in game mode. Thankfully LG has been great with firmware and you have a fine TV set - so it all works out pretty much. Anyway when I had lag on Winter Games on the biathlon event I would hit the fire button and hear the shot half a second later. Through the splitter box this is not happening now. On that event as soon as I pressed fire on the targets I missed - every time. When I pressed the fire button way, way, way early I hit the targets - again this does not happen anymore. Now when I press the fire button and the targets are lined up I hit the targets. But I m not going to argue this any further as there is literally no point. If you could be here in my house, we could have a sound chat and I would gladly show you and we would have no argument. I hope you do get sorted and overcome the lag mate, I really do. The TV you have is pretty ace all things considered.
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oldskool 21 days ago
InterruptRequest
If you've tried these no worries;
Game mode
ALL options that relate to processing that are not turned off by being in game mode - go into your menus/advanced menus etc and turn them all off.
If you have a menu that relates to 4K colour - turn this off as well (no idea if this has an effect - just get every possible processing option - off)
Go to your mini and select the full screen pixel perfect option - less processing.
If you can buy an ibuffalo game pad. You can get them on Amazon for about 17 quid. They seem to ve more responsive - at least at the level of the joystick and every little - helps.
Can you tell me what your TV is? As in what model - exactly.
Is it a 4K set for instance? Or is it 1080p?
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InterruptRequest 21 days ago
oldskool I have a Samsung UE46ES6570, which is a 1080p 46 inch 3D Smart TV. It's a couple of years old, maybe 2-3 years.
I tried everything video related from its menu options, nothing works. Game mode does nothing. Didn't try too many C64 options though, I'll have to try these then.
Thanks for trying to help.
oldskool replied to this.
Darbyram 21 days ago
Try any tv you have in your household.
InterruptRequest 21 days ago
Darbyram I only have my pc monitor as another device. But really, having your main tv not working with the C64 is a big fail, isn't it?
They really should address this with a firmware update. My PS4 Pro doesn't have this problem.Darbyram21 days ago
InterruptRequest I agree and these issues should be addressed asap...some of us have these problems, some of us don't...but they need looking into.
InterruptRequest replied to this.
Darbyram 21 days ago
issues
post in here and see if you get a reply..
InterruptRequest 21 days ago
Darbyram I ordered some C64 books to study assembly language, pretty much the only thing I can do now at the mo. C++, what's that?
Darbyram 21 days ago
InterruptRequest c++ is the stepping stone to greater things..
I InterruptRequest21 days ago
Can you do self modifying code in C++?
Darbyram 21 days ago
I think so, but it's been 30 odd years since I used it. I am sure the younger generation can enlighten you more on the subject. And why would you want too anyway??
InterruptRequest 21 days ago
Darbyram Not for any reason, I just wanted to point out an assemble language feature. It's a female dog to debug though. I REALLY hopy I didn't throw away my assembly language book. I moved recently so stuff gets lost somehow.
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Killamarshian 21 days ago
Maybe the lag is prevalent because The Mini outputs at 720p and most TVs are now 1080p? The up-scaling the TV has to do may be causing the lag. If the Mini could output at 1080p maybe this issue would go away?
Gurce 21 days ago
InterruptRequest If it's of any use for your assembly debugging, VICE has a monitor that you can drop breakpoints into and step through assembly:
www.cs.cmu.edu/~dsladic/vice/doc/html/vice_9.html
I've also got a vague memory of reading that cbm .prg studio has an inbuilt debugger too, I haven't explored that, but if it let's you step alongside your original assembly source code, that would be sweet
Maybe this vid has some insights:oldskool 21 days ago
InterruptRequest Trying to help - no worries.
Have you turned off noise reduction and all the processing stuff like that as well as being in game mode?
If you can make sure that any noise reduction is off, any picture smoothing features and interpolation/smoothing is off etc. Different TVs use different lingo for these features but you need the lot off. Try the pixel perfect option I mentioned on the mini.
One other thing to try would be differing HDMI ports as on some TVs one port is reserved for gaming or runs a little better for gaming. I'm not familiar with your TV set, I tried to find info on it on rtings site etc without any success...anyway a few things to try here. Also are you using the original joystick? I honestly think the Ibuffalo pad improves response quite a bit regardless of lag so you might want to buy/try it unless you are waiting on a firmware update for a differing favoured usb controller.
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lroby74 20 days ago
I am using a 27" LED Asus monitor and no lag, you can see playing on this video :
InterruptRequest replied to this.
InterruptRequest 20 days ago
oldskool Yeah I can try all of my 3 hdmi ports. One of them doesn't work already, maybe 1 of the others will. I can also try the C64's different screen settings.
I'm using the original joystick, I have 2 other wireless gamepads but can't use them.
A lot of mucking about though ...
InterruptRequest 19 days ago
lroby74 What response time does your monitor have?
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lroby74 19 days ago
InterruptRequest 2ms it's an Asus VE278Q)
InterruptRequest 19 days ago
A nice monitor, I hope I don't have to buy it just to be able to play ...
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lroby74 replied to this.
efdee 19 days ago
I'm having a hard time believing this isn't an issue with The C64. None of my other consoles, including my SNES mini, have this issue with my TV.
InterruptRequest 19 days ago
Tried some more things: all my tv's hdmi ports, all the C64's different resolutions, all my tv's video options, game mode, firmware update ... nope, nothing. I think it works really bad (or not at all) with non-pc/gaming monitors. Another firmware update please which actually addresses the issue!...
lroby74 19 days ago
InterruptRequest I already own it, i am using on my PC with Display Port connection and on 5 mini HDMI consoles (NES, SNES, C64, Atari 2600 & Atgames Sega MD) with a 5 port HDMI splitter, i love this monitor
InterruptRequest 19 days ago
lroby74 The VS278Q also looks pretty neat. And I'm not the guy to sit there and wait for months on end waiting for a solution to appear. I think the problem lies in a monitor's response time.
9 DAYS LATER
rialdo 10 days ago Edited
oldskool
I don't know what to tell you, but the fact is, if the screen is filled corner to corner, it's upscaled. Period. End of subject. That's how all TVs work. 720p TVs, 1080p TVs, and 2160p TVs. The only way possible for any TV to display the video full-screen is by upscaling. That's the very definition of upscaling - bumping up the resolution to fill the screen. Otherwise it wouldn't fill the screen and only play in a window.
I did not say your box is sending a 4k video. I said your TV is upscaling it. Period. This is how upscaling works. Your TV is always upscaling if you send it anything other than native resolution. If you send a 4k set a 480p or 720p or 1080p video, it upscales it to 4k. Always. If you send a 1080p TV a 480p or 720p video, it upscales it. Always.
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L Lhadmirp9 days ago
Such a bummer! Was looking forward to play Winter Games with my family! Especially biathlon! But it was unplayable because of the lag! A lot of the other games have the same problem!
The C64mini is really disappointing me and I wont touch it again before there is a fix for this problem!
I have tried to adjust the TV for Games, etc. but no changes!
oldskoo l9 days ago
rialdo
720p fills the whole screen, it is not the same as 1080p that fills the whole screen, that is not the same as 1440p that fills up the whole screen, that is not the same as 2160p that fills up the whole screen. I am forcing the picture to display at the lower resolution of the splitter box - as the splitter box does not support 4K. The splitter box is pushing out a 1080p signal. Now is the mini 720p or 1080p? I have not bothered my arris to find out - what we do know however is that the signal is not 4K lmao. My mini is not being pointlessly upscaled all the way up to 4K and as a result I am getting less processing and guess what...less lag.
That is what I have been saying.
I have very little lag now and am happy with my mini. You have lots of lag and are telling me I am wrong. Can I be wrong and left in peace now please? You do not have to do anything I have said or done, or take my word for anything.
Not getting into anything with people round here anymore.
I'll happily talk positive stuff about what games people like and keep it to that - thx.
Best of luck sorting your lag.
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InterruptRequest 9 days ago
rialdo Does this mean it could work with my 720p projector? I'll have to try this tomorrow!
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oldskool 8 days ago Edited
This might help some if not superceeded via firmware updates:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LG tv - Reduce input lag/Better overall picture
Hey everybody, I've been doing a ton of research on tv calibration settings for my LG tv (42in LN5300) to get the most out of my xbox one. I've been kind of frustrated with not having the best picture I could, and lots of issues with the blacks being crushed. I then stumbled on a forum that unveiled the answer. LG tv settings don't automatically change to the 16x9 setting along with reducing input lag when you switch to "game" mode on picture settings. More importantly your tv isn't outputting RGB color settings (which your xbox one is sending to your tv).
The Solution
Go to the Home/Menu button on your remote.
Select input(s)
Change HDMI 1 label to the PC label. It depends on your specific tv on how you do this. Usually you arrow down or select the HDMI 1 selection, and click to change, or scroll sideways to change it. It's pretty easy to figure out so you shouldn't have an issue changing the label to pc.
This will drastically improve your graphics. As far as the detailed settings, I usually set my picture mode to expert 1 and find what works best. Search AVS forums for your specific tv and that should help you find optimal settings. I've found that on some games I may have to change my sharpness (especially the graphical nightmare that is BF4) but generally they stay the same. Good luck, hope this helps!
Edit: Here's my specific tv settings if anyone was wondering.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would urge everyone still experiencing lag to turn off anything and everything that even smells like extra processing - anything to do with motion or interpolation, anything to do with black levels or dynamic contrast etc
Make sure you are in 4:3 and not 16:9 and make sure you try each and every hdmi port. And try andiffering controller as well as that may have an effect - I use the Ibuffalo and it is a pretty responsive controller - lag or no lag. Go through all advanced/expert menus on your TV and make sure you are getting a bare bones image. Turn off UHD colour just in case that adds processing. This is sometimes hidden and per hdmi channel. Try running your mini off a power supply that is much higher than the recommendation if using more devices and a USB hub (just in case it makes a difference). I run my mini off a 3.4amp power supply from Amazon. Turn off the processing options in the mini and go with 4:3 as I said.
Maybe even try a differing hdmi lead - try one off an Xbox One or PS4 - it's something else to at least try.
My TV has a breakout HDMI box and I am running a splitter box into that and I think it is affecting the way the image is processed on my set on the basis of response - note I do not get a full screen image with this - but this is specific and pointless going on about given my set and set-up.
If no joy whatsoever - try and pick up a cheap/old HD Ready or 1080p set.
There is bound to be some small residual lag though - you have to accept that due to emulation/hdmi etc.
I can't tell people how different the experience is by also switching out the default Joystick to the Ibuffalo - gamesmlike Armalyte are just miles more responsive - you can pick one of them up for about 17 quid and like Insay regardless of lag, you might be pleasantly surprised with that improvement in terms of controller response.
Loving Amalyte since I got rid of lag. Before it was a teen memory of a great game that frustrated like hell. Now it is just superb.
Your BOB is great!