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Post by MeneerJansen on Apr 29, 2022 9:41:23 GMT
In the Youtube video below Phil Kruman describes a problem that he can't solve. The newer The C64 Mini's seem to run way too fast. He tried every combination of NTSC or PAL setting and game version (NTSC/PAL) but the problem persists he says. What do y'all think?
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Post by spannernick on Apr 29, 2022 13:37:05 GMT
Yes it looks like they are selling NTSC models of THEC64 Mini, so the games would run faster.
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Post by MeneerJansen on Apr 29, 2022 14:30:14 GMT
Yes it looks like they are selling NTSC models of THEC64 Mini, so the games would run faster. The author of the video keeps insisting that that is not the case... |
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Post by c64stuff on Apr 29, 2022 23:38:10 GMT
I thought if you set it to pal it will run at that speed and the only difference between the pal and ntsc models was the games that come with it? Since it's emulation and not real hardware why wouldn't the pal/ntsc setting change the speed properly? I mainly run mine in ntsc anyway because that's what people who aren't in the UK used. What seems like the proper speed to everybody is whatever they were used to.
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Post by jj0 on Apr 30, 2022 7:23:40 GMT
I thought if you set it to pal it will run at that speed and the only difference between the pal and ntsc models was the games that come with it? Since it's emulation and not real hardware why wouldn't the pal/ntsc setting change the speed properly? I mainly run mine in ntsc anyway because that's what people who aren't in the UK used. What seems like the proper speed to everybody is whatever they were used to. Actually PAL is used outside the UK as well, in all of Europe, Asia,... |
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Post by MeneerJansen on Apr 30, 2022 10:02:57 GMT
I thought if you set it to pal it will run at that speed and the only difference between the pal and ntsc models was the games that come with it? Since it's emulation and not real hardware why wouldn't the pal/ntsc setting change the speed properly? I mainly run mine in ntsc anyway because that's what people who aren't in the UK used. What seems like the proper speed to everybody is whatever they were used to. Actually PAL is used outside the UK as well, in all of Europe, Asia,... I'm afraid don't know exactly either what the problem is with PAL vs. NTSC in an emulator. But I know for sure that back in the day, on real hardware, certain events in the game and the music were synched to the frame rate of the C64. And the frame rate on a PAL C64 is 50 Hz and NTSC is 60 Hz. For instance, if I use the NTSC version of 'Ghostbusters' on my The C64 which I've set for PAL then the sample (you know the one: "Ghostbusters! Ha ha ha ha!") in the beginning is off. |
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Post by c64stuff on Apr 30, 2022 23:13:27 GMT
I thought if you set it to pal it will run at that speed and the only difference between the pal and ntsc models was the games that come with it? Since it's emulation and not real hardware why wouldn't the pal/ntsc setting change the speed properly? I mainly run mine in ntsc anyway because that's what people who aren't in the UK used. What seems like the proper speed to everybody is whatever they were used to. Actually PAL is used outside the UK as well, in all of Europe, Asia,... Yeah I know. I'm just saying people using ntsc back then are used to a certain speed just like pal users are. Some games have also been written to be speed neutral no matter which system they run on. There's also a slight color difference between pal and ntsc Commodore 64s because of how pal or NTSC processed them. In particular the red is especially different. I only ran into a few games that wouldn't work in ntsc. That I can remember there were a few with something like the score counter slightly off screen. If a game is using the border area with sprites or something this can be more prominent of an issue to pop up. Remember too there were often two versions of games written for the states and overseas. Sometimes the game was completely different. Some were better in pal. Some were better in ntsc. It's not all a one way street. Just like the slight difference in SID sounds between the older and newer SIDs. Some prefer the old SID. Some think the newer one has a better sound. I prefer the older version. |
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Post by MeneerJansen on May 1, 2022 8:45:36 GMT
[...] I'm just saying people using ntsc back then are used to a certain speed just like pal users are. [...] The maker of the Youtube video argues that the newer 'The C64 Mini' on the market even run too fast if you count that in. He compares the versions in his video. |
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Post by jj0 on May 1, 2022 13:34:46 GMT
[...] I'm just saying people using ntsc back then are used to a certain speed just like pal users are. [...] The maker of the Youtube video argues that the newer 'The C64 Mini' on the market even run too fast if you count that in. He compares the versions in his video. Having finally watched the video now, it still looks to me as PAL vs NTSC speed. But the Monty on the Run music does sound super fast, I grew up with a PAL C64, I don't know if that was normal for an NTSC C64 or not. |
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Post by jj0 on May 1, 2022 13:49:13 GMT
The maker of the Youtube video argues that the newer 'The C64 Mini' on the market even run too fast if you count that in. He compares the versions in his video. Having finally watched the video now, it still looks to me as PAL vs NTSC speed. But the Monty on the Run music does sound super fast, I grew up with a PAL C64, I don't know if that was normal for an NTSC C64 or not. I've just run the same version of Monty on the Run on VICE , two windows side by side, setting one as PAL and the other as NTSC. The NTSC one also has the much faster music as in the video so I'd say it's due to NTSC and not due to any hardware/software issues with the Mini. |
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Post by MeneerJansen on May 1, 2022 14:49:58 GMT
Having finally watched the video now, it still looks to me as PAL vs NTSC speed. But the Monty on the Run music does sound super fast, I grew up with a PAL C64, I don't know if that was normal for an NTSC C64 or not. I've just run the same version of Monty on the Run on VICE , two windows side by side, setting one as PAL and the other as NTSC. The NTSC one also has the much faster music as in the video so I'd say it's due to NTSC and not due to any hardware/software issues with the Mini. That's good news. But how do you explain the difference between the two Mini's in his video? Is one indeed set to NTSC even though he says it ain't? |
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Post by jj0 on May 1, 2022 15:00:16 GMT
I've just run the same version of Monty on the Run on VICE , two windows side by side, setting one as PAL and the other as NTSC. The NTSC one also has the much faster music as in the video so I'd say it's due to NTSC and not due to any hardware/software issues with the Mini. That's good news. But how do you explain the difference between the two Mini's in his video? Is one indeed set to NTSC even though he says it ain't? The one that's lighter and has an E rating is an NTSC Mini I think. No idea how it ended up in the UK. So his main point is still valid, you would not want to end up with an NTSC Mini in a PAL region. |
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Post by c64stuff on May 1, 2022 17:47:46 GMT
I just think it's crazy that an emulation machine won't really set the software speed properly for ntsc or pal. Why would they do that? Especially since it's running vice which should handily adjust such things. And especially because there's such a distinct split in a fan base in two regions of the world.
I could see a reproduction of the Spectrum, Z80, Z81, or even the BBC micro being strictly pal no matter where they'd sell one because those machines were practically nonexistent in the states, but it makes no sense to do that with the C64. So it sounds like even if you set the ntsc or pal options it makes no difference in speed?
I would figure it can't be a hardware issue because it wouldn't be cost effective to produce two different hardware versions. There wouldn't be any reason to do it with hardware anyway when software could easily adjust things. Maybe it's a function of the firmware versions for both regions that can be changed? They should offer an update to fix this adjustability.
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Post by jj0 on May 1, 2022 18:09:07 GMT
I just think it's crazy that an emulation machine won't really set the software speed properly for ntsc or pal. Why would they do that? Especially since it's running vice which should handily adjust such things. And especially because there's such a distinct split in a fan base in two regions of the world. I could see a reproduction of the Spectrum, Z80, Z81, or even the BBC micro being strictly pal no matter where they'd sell one because those machines were practically nonexistent in the states, but it makes no sense to do that with the C64. So it sounds like even if you set the ntsc or pal options it makes no difference in speed? I would figure it can't be a hardware issue because it wouldn't be cost effective to produce two different hardware versions. There wouldn't be any reason to do it with hardware anyway when software could easily adjust things. Maybe it's a function of the firmware versions for both regions that can be changed? They should offer an update to fix this adjustability. The emulator does exactly what is expected from it. It sets the right screen refresh speed for the type of C64 it is emulating: 50Hz for PAL, 60Hz for NTSC. The software (in this example Monty on tne Run) uses the screen refresh rate to time things like music (via the vertical sync). So by definition the music is faster on a 60Hz machine than on a 50Hz machine. If this wasn't reproduced on the emulator then it wouldn't emulate the C64 correctly. You will have the same thing happening if you run it on a real PAL and a real NTSC machine. If Monty on tbe Run would use a different method for timing, for example CIA timer then it would probably run at the same speed regardless of PAL or NTSC. |
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Post by MeneerJansen on May 2, 2022 9:45:59 GMT
I just think it's crazy that an emulation machine won't really set the software speed properly for ntsc or pal. [...] As far as I know the Vice emulator that runs on The C64 (Mini/Maxi/Vic20) does just that. However, Retro Games Ltd. have a quirky way of setting your machine/emulator to NTSC or PAL. I think most people don't remember that when they powered The C64 up for the first time it asked if you live in PAL or NTSC land. You had to choose wisely between the two. This can NOT be changed afterwards other than by a factory reset. And that'll loose you your saved games, I think. So nobody knows how to switch from a PAL to an NTSC machine nor do they know how to do that. It ain't in the menu's. There are some NTSC/PAL setting in the menu's but they are for the screen aspect ratio. This is confusing. By the way you can run Vice a different way on your The C64. See this post on the forum. |
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Post by jj0 on May 2, 2022 10:21:10 GMT
I just think it's crazy that an emulation machine won't really set the software speed properly for ntsc or pal. [...] As far as I know the Vice emulator that runs on The C64 (Mini/Maxi/Vic20) does just that. However, Retro Games Ltd. have a quirky way of setting your machine/emulator to NTSC or PAL. I think most people don't remember that when they powered The C64 up for the first time it asked if you live in PAL or NTSC land. You had to choose wisely between the two. This can NOT be changed afterwards other than by a factory reset. And that'll loose you your saved games, I think. So nobody knows how to switch from a PAL to an NTSC machine nor do they know how to do that. It ain't in the menu's. There are some NTSC/PAL setting in the menu's but they are for the screen aspect ratio. This is confusing. By the way you can run Vice a different way on your The C64. See this post on the forum. The Mini's were produced separately in a PAL and an NTSC version which cannot be changed in the settings. The Maxi is produced in a single version where at first startup or after a factory reset you can select PAL or NTSC. |
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Post by MeneerJansen on May 2, 2022 14:37:45 GMT
As far as I know the Vice emulator that runs on The C64 (Mini/Maxi/Vic20) does just that. However, Retro Games Ltd. have a quirky way of setting your machine/emulator to NTSC or PAL. I think most people don't remember that when they powered The C64 up for the first time it asked if you live in PAL or NTSC land. You had to choose wisely between the two. This can NOT be changed afterwards other than by a factory reset. And that'll loose you your saved games, I think. So nobody knows how to switch from a PAL to an NTSC machine nor do they know how to do that. It ain't in the menu's. There are some NTSC/PAL setting in the menu's but they are for the screen aspect ratio. This is confusing. By the way you can run Vice a different way on your The C64. See this post on the forum. The Mini's were produced separately in a PAL and an NTSC version which cannot be changed in the settings. The Maxi is produced in a single version where at first startup or after a factory reset you can select PAL or NTSC. I didn't know that! Thanks for the info. Pretty stupid of Retro Games Ltd. Yet another reason why I hate the Mini. |
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Post by spannernick on May 3, 2022 14:06:43 GMT
Both boxes he shows in the video have E on them for Everyone, thats a US rating mark so they should be a NTSC version of the C64 Mini, in the UK its PEGI 7, both boxes I have has that on them. On GAME they are showing the US version of the mini...weird. www.game.co.uk/en/the-c64-mini-2107239THEC64 NTSC Version  THEC64 Mini PAL, This is what my boxes are like with PEGI 7 on them and they are both PAL  |
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Post by virtualsky on May 22, 2022 2:52:50 GMT
I'm afraid don't know exactly either what the problem is with PAL vs. NTSC in an emulator. But I know for sure that back in the day, on real hardware, certain events in the game and the music were synched to the frame rate of the C64. And the frame rate on a PAL C64 is 50 Hz and NTSC is 60 Hz. For instance, if I use the NTSC version of 'Ghostbusters' on my The C64 which I've set for PAL then the sample (you know the one: "Ghostbusters! Ha ha ha ha!") in the beginning is off. I didn't know it at the time, but the copy of Commando I had in my collection was obviously PAL-centric. To this day, because I'm in Canada, when I play Commando in it's true PAL-mode (with VICE), the music just sounds so slow and bogged down to me. It just doesn't sound right. I'm so used to the faster tempo of it in NTSC that I can't really enjoy it unless I'm playing it in NTSC-mode. |
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dp600xl
Creatures
Revisiting BASIC and poking through old C64 manuals.
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Post by dp600xl on Aug 12, 2022 2:24:19 GMT
I have a NA C64 mini and maxi, as well as an EU maxi and VIC20. All four run at the exact same speed, and I checked what mode it was running in, 50hz. My suspicion is that there was a hardware change at some point, and now it doesn't run at the speed at which it was originally tested. The guy in the video does indeed show a MAXI running at the correct speed, and I believe a mini as well? Either way, I have two NA and two EU models, and all run at the same speed with same firmware 1.6.1, in PAL mode, etc.
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dp600xl
Creatures
Revisiting BASIC and poking through old C64 manuals.
Posts: 14
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Post by dp600xl on Aug 12, 2022 2:30:00 GMT
I have a NA C64 mini and maxi, as well as an EU maxi and VIC20. All four run at the exact same speed, and I checked what mode it was running in, 50hz. My suspicion is that there was a hardware change at some point, and now it doesn't run at the speed at which it was originally tested. The guy in the video does indeed show a MAXI running at the correct speed, and I believe a mini as well? Either way, I have two NA and two EU models, and all run at the same speed with same firmware 1.6.1, in PAL mode, etc. For what it is worth, I should add that the MINI says RGL-001, while the MAXIS say RGL-004, and the VIC20 says RGL-005 on the bottom. I know it was brought up in the video. The MINI I have is not a silver label model, which I am led to believe are the earlier models??? Anyhow, I wonder if they guys running full blown VICE on their C64 are getting the correct speeds? One of these C64s is destined to some modding, so I will have to test that out when I get there. |
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Post by c64stuff on Aug 12, 2022 2:55:13 GMT
This is just crazy that a emulation machine running vice isn't properly setting the speed for pal or ntsc based on the mode you select. The C64, just like the Amiga, have and had huge fan bases in both regions. It would seem to me that setting software speed to what you're used to would be priority number one. It can't be a hardware issue. It would make no economical sense to produce two versions of hardware when software is more than able to set things accordingly.
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Post by vic2020ian on Aug 14, 2022 11:55:00 GMT
If he put PCUAE on it he could force the 50/60Hz change and test it on these NTSC grey import machines or does that not work on the mini Nick?
He could also reflash one of the minis with PAL firmware and then compare.
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dp600xl
Creatures
Revisiting BASIC and poking through old C64 manuals.
Posts: 14
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Post by dp600xl on Aug 15, 2022 19:35:32 GMT
This is just crazy that a emulation machine running vice isn't properly setting the speed for pal or ntsc based on the mode you select. The C64, just like the Amiga, have and had huge fan bases in both regions. It would seem to me that setting software speed to what you're used to would be priority number one. It can't be a hardware issue. It would make no economical sense to produce two versions of hardware when software is more than able to set things accordingly. From what I am experiencing, there is indeed a speed difference between the PAL and NTSC settings, they just both appear to run faster than they should. Interestingly, I have found at least one modern game which appears to run at correct speed: Runn 'n Gunn. The game appears to be both NTSC/PAL compatible. If I am correct, there may be something to this. However, I do not have an actual Commodore 64 to test my theories, so I only have available Youtube videos for the comparisons. |
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dp600xl
Creatures
Revisiting BASIC and poking through old C64 manuals.
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Post by dp600xl on Aug 15, 2022 19:46:55 GMT
I just reset to the factory settings, and selected 50hz output when asked during the initialization. Now it runs at the correct speed. Does this make sense? Shouldn't I be able to switch the speed in-game rather than permanently at the set up? Weird.
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dp600xl
Creatures
Revisiting BASIC and poking through old C64 manuals.
Posts: 14
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Post by dp600xl on Aug 15, 2022 20:12:39 GMT
From The C64/VIC20 Manual:
APPENDIX D
60 HZ OR 50 HZ
If your connected HD display can accept a 50 Hz image, you will see Video output settings during the initial set up process for THEC64. You can choose between 60 Hz (the default) or 50 Hz.
If your current HD TV or monitor can display a 50 Hz signal, then Video output options appear when you first switch on THEC64/THEVIC20 as part of the initial set up. If your HD TV or monitor cannot display at 50 Hz, then this screen does not appear and THEC64/THEVIC20 automatically uses 60 Hz.
WHY CHANGE THIS SETTING?
An original North American C64 or VIC 20 computer outputs at a refresh rate slightly less than 60 Hz. A European C64 or VIC 20 outputs at a rate slightly more than 50 Hz.
In comparison, THEC64/THEVIC20 locks to the HDMI rate of exactly 50 Hz or 60 Hz depending on the Video output setting, so that it produces super-smooth and tear-free graphics when running programs on a modern HD display. Regardless of the video output setting, THEC64/THEVIC20 ensures that programs believe they are running at original C64 PAL or C64 NTSC speeds, as appropriate.
A C64 PAL computer will run faster when the Video output is set to 60 Hz. An NTSC C64 computer will run slower when the Video output is set to 50 Hz. As you would expect, a C64 PAL computer runs at almost exactly the right speed when the output is set to 50 Hz, as will an C64 NTSC computer when the output is set to 60 Hz. This is their native mode.
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Maybe I am a little bit slow in the head... but does this mean that if you choose 60hz at the initial set up that it will never run in 50hz mode even if PAL mode is currently selected in the .cjm file? Does this mean that if I select 50hz mode during the set up that NTSC mode will be in 60hz? The manual seems to imply that the mode you select for video output is permanent, and selecting 50hz means that NTSC mode will be an inaccurate speed, likewise if you choose 60hz, then PAL mode will run at an inaccurate speed.
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Post by c64stuff on Aug 16, 2022 0:20:05 GMT
Reading that text, they also appear to suggest that regardless of if the screen is set to pal or ntsc, the game will run at the proper speed for it's region (pal or ntsc) REGARDLESS of the screen setting? Reread it. They do seem to imply that. Let's assume that's the case, even though we know games aren't running at the right speed. Assuming that, maybe they intended a file name tag to set this that they never did add, or they intended some other way to figure out which region the game was for but never implemented it?
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dp600xl
Creatures
Revisiting BASIC and poking through old C64 manuals.
Posts: 14
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Post by dp600xl on Aug 16, 2022 5:32:33 GMT
Reading that text, they also appear to suggest that regardless of if the screen is set to pal or ntsc, the game will run at the proper speed for it's region (pal or ntsc) REGARDLESS of the screen setting? Reread it. They do seem to imply that. Let's assume that's the case, even though we know games aren't running at the right speed. Assuming that, maybe they intended a file name tag to set this that they never did add, or they intended some other way to figure out which region the game was for but never implemented it? The manual is pretty clear that the screen setting only affects how it is displayed. It does not make explicit that the 60 or 50hz Video Output setting will permanently set the speed, but it does have a an explanation how how the software will run slower or faster. |
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Post by MeneerJansen on Aug 16, 2022 8:10:32 GMT
From The C64/VIC20 Manual: APPENDIX D
60 HZ OR 50 HZ
If your connected HD display can accept a 50 Hz image, you will see Video output settings during the initial set up process for THEC64. You can choose between 60 Hz (the default) or 50 Hz.
If your current HD TV or monitor can display a 50 Hz signal, then Video output options appear when you first switch on THEC64/THEVIC20 as part of the initial set up. If your HD TV or monitor cannot display at 50 Hz, then this screen does not appear and THEC64/THEVIC20 automatically uses 60 Hz.
WHY CHANGE THIS SETTING?
An original North American C64 or VIC 20 computer outputs at a refresh rate slightly less than 60 Hz. A European C64 or VIC 20 outputs at a rate slightly more than 50 Hz. In comparison, THEC64/THEVIC20 locks to the HDMI rate of exactly 50 Hz or 60 Hz depending on the Video output setting, so that it produces super-smooth and tear-free graphics when running programs on a modern HD display. Regardless of the video output setting, THEC64/THEVIC20 ensures that programs believe they are running at original C64 PAL or C64 NTSC speeds, as appropriate. A C64 PAL computer will run faster when the Video output is set to 60 Hz. An NTSC C64 computer will run slower when the Video output is set to 50 Hz. As you would expect, a C64 PAL computer runs at almost exactly the right speed when the output is set to 50 Hz, as will an C64 NTSC computer when the output is set to 60 Hz. This is their native mode. -------- Maybe I am a little bit slow in the head... but does this mean that if you choose 60hz at the initial set up that it will never run in 50hz mode even if PAL mode is currently selected in the .cjm file? Does this mean that if I select 50hz mode during the set up that NTSC mode will be in 60hz? The manual seems to imply that the mode you select for video output is permanent, and selecting 50hz means that NTSC mode will be an inaccurate speed, likewise if you choose 60hz, then PAL mode will run at an inaccurate speed. That's for the Maxi. AFAIK that one doesn't have a problem. The video that I quotes is about the Mini's. It appears that one cannot set the region (Pal or NTSC) when one starts the Mini for he first time. |
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Post by jj0 on Aug 16, 2022 9:48:54 GMT
As mentioned before, there is a specific THE64 Mini model for NTSC (outputting at 60Hz) and a specific THE64 Mini model for PAL (outputting at 50Hz). So you can't change the ouput HDMI frequency (unless you use PCUAE)
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