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Post by spannernick on Oct 12, 2020 17:00:45 GMT
It has a different version of the Carousel v1.4.1.. its codename is Ares, the name reminds me of the Horoscopes, Zodiac Sign... .. mmm are they naming them after gods..?
THE VIC 20 Keyboard, the brown is lighter than the original, the keyboard feels more like a Amiga A1200 keyboard, they have mixed both the VIC-20 and C64 games together, I wonder if it will have a mode to split them up on the Carousel so you can see VIC20 games first and then C64 games after, but that would be to hard to do.(well it wouldn't if the Carousel had folders then you could have a VIC20 folder and a C64 folder and only show them games, well now you can... with PCU... Oh they have done, they have made a genre filter called Model and you can switch the games around on the Carousel so show Vic-20 games show first and C64 games last .. they read my mind.. THE VIC 20 Keyboard is more like the Amiga Keyboard and more quieter and don't sound like you are banging the keys.. I do like the Amiga keyboard.. I do like THEC64 Maxi's Keyboard and the way its been designed, the breadbin case and keyboard is worth the money you play for it.. even if you bought it to use it with a RPI3.. there is no way you can get a brad new C64/VIC 20 keyboard and case for £110. I do actually like the Carousel and its 10X better than the C64 DTV, it blows that out of the water.. , I only use the Carousel to play games on THEC64 Maxi, well mostly, I sometime play games that I can't add them to the Carousel with Media Access, I like that too, 2+ disk games.
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Post by scott on Oct 12, 2020 20:07:30 GMT
Nice job Chuck. Its refreshing to see a nice simple review without a lot of drawn out gameplay etc. I have a Mini, a friend sent me TheC64 Maxi from UK, and I per-ordered the VIC from AmazonUK. You're helping build the anticipation BTW, I think its great what Retro Games has done and is doing. I'll keep ordering whatever they make
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Post by bent on Oct 19, 2020 20:10:46 GMT
Looking good. I can see that he runs Super expander and gets the extra memory. I can't get any super expander roms to work on my TheC64Full.. Is there a special rom to use on theC64/TheVIC?
Anyone know?
Best, Bent
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Post by spannernick on Oct 20, 2020 9:17:37 GMT
If you use a vsf snapshots from VICE you can load VIC20 games with the right memory, you set the memory in the VICE emulator just before you save it as a snapshot image vsf, but use VICEv2.4 cause that what's on THEC64 and THE VIC 20. the newer version of VICE uses different snapshots so they will not work, that one of the reasons why they never updated VICE, all the games on the Carousel would stop working and would have to make new compressed snapshots(vsf.gz) for each game in the Carousel.
Oh this bit would help too(I forget to add it) if you change the snapshot from .vsf to .prg you can load it in Media Access in THEC64 Maxi but make sure you select the VIC20 Model to load the snapshot.
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Post by spannernick on Oct 20, 2020 11:23:21 GMT
THEC64/VIC20 Keyboard is more like a Microsoft Wireless Keyboard 1000(Model 1356) cause its made the same, it uses a cup/plunger under its Key Caps that have a square fitting(cups/plungers on the membrane and has a square hole where the key fit into) so the MS keyboard design is the same as the THEC64 Maxi keyboard design, they were both made in China and this is how they make keyboards now in China. I have the Microsoft Wireless Keyboard 1000(Model 1356) and I use it all the time and I like the feel of it and it types well, I am using it now as I type.. it was made about 2011. Here is a picture of the Microsoft keyboard I am taking about, its the same as mine... Here is a video of the keyboard being disassembled and you will see its made the same way as theC64 Maxi Keyboard and is the same design.(it not in English) TheC64 Maxi Keyboard is a copy of the KeyrahV1/V2(the Keyrah works with THEC64 Mini/Maxi too) its software inside its IC is, it has a blob, with the silicone inside it instead of a IC, it cheaper to make it that way, it even has the same dev keys, if you look in Linux and use evtest but some are mapped differently so CTRL=CTRL on theC64 Maxi and CTRL=TAB on the KeyrahV1/V2, the windows map on the Kayrah is CTRL=CTRL so theC64 Maxi keyboard map it a mix of both maps on the Keyrah V1/V2. Keyrah V1 is abit different to V2 it has the same 2 maps as V2 but there are mapped differently on the switch. Here is THEC64 Maxi been disassembled, the Keyboard. The keyboard hardware is based on the MS W Keyboard 1000(Model 1356) and its firmware inside its blob is based on a KeyrahV2, well everything is copied anyway.. THEC64 Maxi is a copy of a C64.. and THE VIC 20 is a copy of a Vic-20 and THEC64 Maxi...
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Post by bent on Oct 21, 2020 11:45:44 GMT
If you use a vsf snapshots from VICE you can load VIC20 games with the right memory, you set the memory in the VICE emulator just before you save it as a snapshot image vsf, but use VICEv2.4 cause that what's on THEC64 and THE VIC 20. the newer version of VICE uses different snapshots so they will not work, that one of the reasons why they never updated VICE, all the games on the Carousel would stop working and would have to make new compressed snapshots(vsf.gz) for each game in the Carousel. Oh this bit would help too(I forget to add it) if you change the snapshot from .vsf to .prg you can load it in Media Access in THEC64 Maxi but make sure you select the VIC20 Model to load the snapshot. Hello again, Thank you. I'll try this. Best, Bent
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Post by cudy on Oct 24, 2020 23:34:22 GMT
If you use a vsf snapshots from VICE you can load VIC20 games with the right memory, you set the memory in the VICE emulator just before you save it as a snapshot image vsf, but use VICEv2.4 cause that what's on THEC64 and THE VIC 20. the newer version of VICE uses different snapshots so they will not work, that one of the reasons why they never updated VICE, all the games on the Carousel would stop working and would have to make new compressed snapshots(vsf.gz) for each game in the Carousel. Oh this bit would help too(I forget to add it) if you change the snapshot from .vsf to .prg you can load it in Media Access in THEC64 Maxi but make sure you select the VIC20 Model to load the snapshot. Hi, I have saved a snapshot (renaming it from vfs to prg) from Vice for Windows (win10pro 64bit) but the subsequent loading in THEVIC20 fails, it returns to the initial mask showing only 3583 bytes available. I have tried various versions of Vice for Windows (WinVICE-2.4-x64, WinVICE-2.4.9-x86-4SID, GTK3VICE-3.4-win64-r37296) and they all give the exact same result. I created the snapshot from Vice after loading the game or after simply configuring the memory expansion without loading any games but I get the same result: 3583 bytes free. Edit: Reading THEC64-Full-size-User-Manual-Jan-2020-EN.pdf I found the directions to start games with the correct memory expansion for the VIC20.
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Post by spannernick on Oct 25, 2020 19:36:27 GMT
If you use a vsf snapshots from VICE you can load VIC20 games with the right memory, you set the memory in the VICE emulator just before you save it as a snapshot image vsf, but use VICEv2.4 cause that what's on THEC64 and THE VIC 20. the newer version of VICE uses different snapshots so they will not work, that one of the reasons why they never updated VICE, all the games on the Carousel would stop working and would have to make new compressed snapshots(vsf.gz) for each game in the Carousel. Oh this bit would help too(I forget to add it) if you change the snapshot from .vsf to .prg you can load it in Media Access in THEC64 Maxi but make sure you select the VIC20 Model to load the snapshot. Hi, I have saved a snapshot (renaming it from vfs to prg) from Vice for Windows (win10pro 64bit) but the subsequent loading in THEVIC20 fails, it returns to the initial mask showing only 3583 bytes available. I have tried various versions of Vice for Windows (WinVICE-2.4-x64, WinVICE-2.4.9-x86-4SID, GTK3VICE-3.4-win64-r37296) and they all give the exact same result. I created the snapshot from Vice after loading the game or after simply configuring the memory expansion without loading any games but I get the same result: 3583 bytes free. Edit: Reading THEC64-Full-size-User-Manual-Jan-2020-EN.pdf I found the directions to start games with the correct memory expansion for the VIC20. Oh OK it works in the file loader with a C64 snapshot so thought it would work with a Vic 20 game too, I never tested it with the VIC 20 Emulator, I should of first tested it, I am so sorry, I was wrong... I might look into it to see if I can get it to work.. I have ever done it in Media Access on THEC64 Mini/Maxi so it might only work in the File Loader, it might work on THE VIC 20 with it's File Loader.
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Post by spannernick on Oct 25, 2020 19:42:40 GMT
I do like THEC64 Maxi's Keyboard and the way its been designed, the breadbin case and keyboard is worth the money you play for it.. even if you bought it to use it with a RPI3.. I do actually like the Carousel and its better than a C64 DTV, it blows that out of the water.. , I only use the Carousel to play games on THEC64 Maxi now, I don't use Media Access or File Loader, there is no need when you have Project Carousel USB running on it all the time...
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 29, 2020 12:52:22 GMT
I do like THEC64 Maxi's Keyboard and the way its been designed, the breadbin case and keyboard is worth the money you play for it.. even if you bought it to use it with a RPI3..
To be honest, I’ve got mixed feelings about the keyboard.
It certainly looks very nice. From a purely aesthetic perspective, I’ve got no complaints.
It also feels OK. Not great but OK, and still significantly better than a real C64 keyboard (which didn’t feel good at all).
However, on closer inspection, the build quality just isn’t there. The switches have been manufactured using cheap rubber dome over membrane technology. And even more disappointingly, the keycaps appear to have been printed using equally cheap laser ablation (or laser etching) technology. Keycaps printed using this method look great on day one, but are notorious for wearing out very quickly. It’s one of the worst printing methods to use if you care about longevity.
I’m actually more concerned about the keycaps than the switches, because once they start to wear out, they’ll be impossible to replace. It will only take one worn out legend to ruin the look of the device.
Ironically, despite being a budget computer, the original C64 came fitted with high quality doubleshot keycaps, which last practically forever. That's why you often come across old C64s with beaten up cases, but keyboards that look like they’ve come straight from the factory.
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Post by spannernick on Oct 29, 2020 15:15:05 GMT
If anything does go wrong with theC64 Maxi's keyboard you can replace it using a KeyrahV2 and a original C64 Keyboard, I use a KeyrahV2 and original keyboard with mine. About the key caps they made them the same way as the keys on THEC64 Mini, but doing it that way on the Minis key are ok cause they are not used as keys, Maybe the keys need a lacquer on them to protect them, maybe something like clear varnish.. Here is a video of how they did the Minis keyboard, they made THEC64 Maxi/VIC20 keyboard the same too. This is what you get when you want to make something as cheap as possible and use China(remember Koch Media built it so used a factory in China), all Commodore Machine were built in house and built in the country of origin and sold in that country, if you look on the silver label under the case, it will say `Made in USA, Made in Great Britain, Made in Germany` Well will see how long the keyboard lasts, if it lasts less than a year then it under warranty and you can get a replacement, like THEC64 Joystick had to be replaced, RGL don't really test things, its down to the factory in China to do that, it gets really tested when it gets released, it seems they are trying to learn by there mistakes and can only do it out in the field(RGL's machines sold to the public). My advise.. Only replace the keyboard with a KeyrahV2 if you can't get a replacement keyboard from RGL, I have THEC64 Mini and its keys are fine even if I take it a part a lot and rub the keyboard on a hard surface, it should last.. we will see.
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 30, 2020 16:48:36 GMT
Thanks for the link. That's an interesting video. Unfortunately, it confirms my worst fears. The keycaps were definitely printed using laser ablation.
With regards to replacing the keyboard with an original C64 keyboard, that's an interesting idea that I'm definitely considering. However, it's not a cheap option. Last time I checked, Keyrahs cost about £30. You then have to add on the cost of a second hand keyboard from Ebay - say £20. So that makes about £50. You can buy a fairly decent new mechanical keyboard for that.
I was also considering replacing the original SOC within The C64 with an Orange Pi PC board. The trouble is that if I go down this road, there will be very little of the original machine left. I could end up having spent £110 just to get a new C64 case!
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Post by spannernick on Oct 30, 2020 21:42:44 GMT
Yeah I see what you mean, I only made THEC64 Maxi cause I had a Keyrah and original keyboard already.
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Post by spannernick on Nov 4, 2020 13:44:23 GMT
Only replace the keyboard with a KeyrahV2 if you can't get a replacement from RGL. You can see RGL do have the heart in there machines and the way they made, like the Firmware and the Carousel, that was not done over night.. , they have no control over how THEC64 Mini/Maxi/Vic 20 is made, that down to Koch Media, and its not bad for the price, The original C64 was like £250-£300 in 1984. If anyone is wondering where THEC64 Mini came from, the idea of it, it from the first computer they made, it was called the ZX Spectrum Vega(nothing to do with the plus version), all the stuff they learn from that is in the Carousel and THEC64 Mini, I have the ZX Spectrum Vega(you get 100 games with it built in, and its still selling now on eBay when it was made in 2015, I use it every now and then, it a good little machine, it don't have a carousel, the menu is text based, and the keyboard is its controller) and it sits by my THEC64 Mini... cause they are both made by Paul Andrews and Chris Smith so they need to be together.. that where the cjm files came from.
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Post by bottaioretrotech on Nov 4, 2020 14:18:06 GMT
Just a minor thought, with keeping our machines in tiptop shape:
As for the longetivity of the text on those caps, what about trying to apply a clear coat? Even though it might not be ideal, it's at least an option to consider. At least if someone still has it's machine with the keycaps intact ofcourse.
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Post by spannernick on Nov 4, 2020 15:21:23 GMT
About the key caps they made them the same way as the keys on THEC64 Mini, but doing it that way on the Minis key are ok cause they are not used as keys, Maybe the keys need a lacquer on them to protect them, maybe something like clear varnish.. I had the same idea...
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Post by bottaioretrotech on Nov 4, 2020 15:43:06 GMT
I guess i overlooked that post, but great minds think alike or something like that.
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Post by spannernick on Nov 4, 2020 16:03:59 GMT
yeah... got to be careful what you use cause you don't know what reaction you will get cause of the brown paint they used and make the key cap worse, as a test you could use the bit of the key you don't see, the back of the key to see if you get a reaction from the brown paint and the varnish, I don't know but you could use clear nail varnish, but it could damage the key and strip the brown paint off, that why I say be carful.
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Post by grasshopper on Nov 4, 2020 22:27:16 GMT
Yes, I think varnishing the keycaps would be too risky as it's impossible to know in advance how the varnish will react to the paint.
I'm hoping that once demand for the C64 Maxi (and VIC20 Maxi) has been met, RGL will consider selling spare parts for the machines.
I'd be a lot less concerned about the poor quality keycaps if I was able to purchase a couple of spare sets.
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Post by bottaioretrotech on Nov 5, 2020 13:28:40 GMT
I certainly hope they'll do spares in the foreseeable future. And if they want to do justice, they should also consider stocking spare caps for the genuine commodore machines. That's something what we retro boys would gladly buy.
And yeah.... the varnish, it's indeed a risk. Being active in scale model, car and retro scene, i've seen what paint reactions can do.
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Post by spannernick on Dec 5, 2020 0:14:39 GMT
I Just got THEVIC20 and noticed something they have used the keys from thec64 maxi and put PET fonts on them and there not shiny they are mat, thats not like the original Vic 20, look at the box with picture of of THEVIC20 and look at the keyboard the keys look darker and the keys look faded, mine is the same, and the keyboard looks spray painted, if you look at it on a turn down light you can see it. You can see the real keyboard in this video below. The PET(same one in the video) was the first computer I used and I loved it, I use to use it every day after school.. that why my foster mum got me the C64 in 1984. I like THEVIC20, and am happy with it but just noticed it thats all, maybe its just me.. I like the sound the keys make when you rub your hand across them, like a real C64 keyboard You see difference here.. The first VIC 20 used the keys from the PET so they are angled differently to C64 keys and are shiny, they do look better, THE VIC 20 keys font looks grey. One problem with the picture on the box, its a 3D model of the VIC20 so keyboard is not the same, everything on the box(including the box itself)is a 3D model, even the joystick, the box is made before the machine is created, they make a 3D model of it first, that how its made, then the case is printed in a big machine, RGL properly use one of the Adobe products to design it. The Word VIC 20 is the same font as the PET font... , just noticed that, if you look at the "2" in "VIC 20" and then the "2" in the keyboard.
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